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	<title>Comments on: Feral cats and feral horses</title>
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	<link>http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/</link>
	<description>News  and commentary on land (ab)use ...</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Peter Bray</title>
		<link>http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-37132</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Bray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-37132</guid>
		<description>Yes, we should declare protected areas for zebra mussels in the San Francisco Bay so they can establish themselves.  And whenever we find snakeheads in lakes and streams on the east coast, we should do everything to ensure that they survive and propagate.  And Australia should allow cane toads free access to the entire country without hindrance.  And Scotch broom should be welcomed.  Yeah, uh, great idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, we should declare protected areas for zebra mussels in the San Francisco Bay so they can establish themselves.  And whenever we find snakeheads in lakes and streams on the east coast, we should do everything to ensure that they survive and propagate.  And Australia should allow cane toads free access to the entire country without hindrance.  And Scotch broom should be welcomed.  Yeah, uh, great idea.</p>
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		<title>By: joesph alden</title>
		<link>http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-37121</link>
		<dc:creator>joesph alden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-37121</guid>
		<description>in opinion, feral organisms (plants and animals) should be treated like other animals. Many people kill feral animals because the are unneeded.
join the 
H.T.F.A. cooperation 
(help the feral animal) cooperation 
for more information email H.T.F.Acoop@nyc.gov 
THANK YOU</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in opinion, feral organisms (plants and animals) should be treated like other animals. Many people kill feral animals because the are unneeded.<br />
join the<br />
H.T.F.A. cooperation<br />
(help the feral animal) cooperation<br />
for more information email <a href="mailto:H.T.F.Acoop@nyc.gov">H.T.F.Acoop@nyc.gov</a><br />
THANK YOU</p>
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		<title>By: poetryman69</title>
		<link>http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-34468</link>
		<dc:creator>poetryman69</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-34468</guid>
		<description>do what you gotta do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>do what you gotta do.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Bray</title>
		<link>http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-34448</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Bray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-34448</guid>
		<description>Your comments are mostly false.  Let's go through them.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Eradicating cats and colonies does not the fix the problem, it makes it worse. This will allow for more cats to come in and take their place; starting the whole cycle over again.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What?  That doesn't make any sense.  Underlying your argument, of course, is the cat monger notion that colonies somehow ward off other cats.  That's just not so, and there is no scientific basis to make such a claim.  A "colony" of cats is not a pride of lions fighting off invading lions... it is a group of semi-domesticated animals that may or may not ward off other cats.

But, even in the unlikely event that they somehow do ward off other cats, you say that getting rid of the colony will "allow for more cats to come in and take their place".  Where do those cats come from?  Thin air?  Or are they there to begin with?  So you have X cats in a colony and Y cats outside of the colony.  If you euthanize X cats in the colony, you only have Y cats left (which can be euthanized too).... surely this is better than having X + Y cats?

&lt;blockquote&gt;TNR stabilizes populations at manageable levels, eliminates annoying mating behaviors, is more effective/less costly than repeated eradication attempts, is humane to the animals, and fosters compassion in the community.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A bunch of nonsense.  First, it does not "stabilize" cat population levels.  If anything, it results in MORE cats.  The site of 100+ cats well-cared for and very publicly visible encourages other people to drop-off their unwanted cat at the "colony".

Second, how can trap, castrate, release, and then care for that cat for its life be cheaper than trap and euthanize?  You've got me on that one.

Finally, as any TNR person will tell you, it is impossible to catch every cat in a colony, and so the colony will continue to expand, while significant efforts and cost will go towards trying to catch the few uncatchables...

&lt;blockquote&gt;We shouldn’t be deciding who lives and who dies (the cat or the bird, etc)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That's just stupid to say, and I bet you know it.  Cats were introduced by humans.  And they are decimating local ecosystems.  We need to be responsible and clean up this mess.

&lt;blockquote&gt;There’s no simply answer or solution, but there is a happy medium that we all can contribute to and that’s TNR.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, here's a good summation of why &lt;a href="http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/species/nuis_exo/dom_cat/cat.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;TNR doesn't work&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
     To wildlife biologists and other critics, the trap-and-release program is impracticable if not downright fraudulent, a Trojan Horse full of cats being shunted onto public lands.

    First, they say, it is almost impossible to trap all feral cats within a given area at once. Indeed, a member of Happy Tails in Sacramento acknowledged to reporter Tracy Bryan of KCRA-TV that not a single cat had been captured in three colonies this cat group managed. Moreover, cats trapped once will tend to avoid a second experience, thus evading booster shots.

    Second, feeding does not prevent hunting; in fact, it may increase the cat’s advantage over prey and native predators, including the great horned owl, long-tailed weasel, and gray fox.

    Third, evidence is lacking that cats will band together to protect territory; indeed, there is much literature and observation to the contrary. “It’s common for new cats to show up at feeding stations,” said Ron Jurek of the Nongame Bird and Mammal Program, California Department of Fish and Game. The very existence of colonies attracts more cats as they become dumping grounds for unwanted pets.

    Fourth, sterilization-a step universally applauded-does not appreciably reduce the feral cat population. Biologists Victor Chow and Peter Connors of the Bodega Marine Laboratory argued this point to the city of Santa Rosa in attempting to dissuade it from accepting the TTVAR program. There will always be nonsterile cats around, they said; the program really only enhances the survival rate of kittens.

[...]

Ron Jurek at Fish and Game calls this bunkum. “Cats are domestic animals bred for companionship with humans. They fill no niche in the wild except that carved out for them by people. Cats have no place whatsoever in parks.” (Like most leading opponents of trap and release programs, Jurek is a cat owner, disproving a cat movement allegation that the issue pits “cat lovers against bird lovers.” Four cats live in his home, but do not roam beyond the deck.) Left to their own devices, cats must spread thinly and range widely to eke out a short and miserable existence. Far greater densities quickly become the norm wherever cats are fed in groups. “Even a small group of six cats roaming over a few dozen acres of open space exists at a population density greater than all local native mammal predators combined,” Jurek said. The result is an inexorable depletion of ground-nesting birds, small rodents, reptiles, and amphibians including salamanders and frogs.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Trap-neuter-release people simply don't care about the environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your comments are mostly false.  Let&#8217;s go through them.</p>
<blockquote><p>Eradicating cats and colonies does not the fix the problem, it makes it worse. This will allow for more cats to come in and take their place; starting the whole cycle over again.</p></blockquote>
<p>What?  That doesn&#8217;t make any sense.  Underlying your argument, of course, is the cat monger notion that colonies somehow ward off other cats.  That&#8217;s just not so, and there is no scientific basis to make such a claim.  A &#8220;colony&#8221; of cats is not a pride of lions fighting off invading lions&#8230; it is a group of semi-domesticated animals that may or may not ward off other cats.</p>
<p>But, even in the unlikely event that they somehow do ward off other cats, you say that getting rid of the colony will &#8220;allow for more cats to come in and take their place&#8221;.  Where do those cats come from?  Thin air?  Or are they there to begin with?  So you have X cats in a colony and Y cats outside of the colony.  If you euthanize X cats in the colony, you only have Y cats left (which can be euthanized too)&#8230;. surely this is better than having X + Y cats?</p>
<blockquote><p>TNR stabilizes populations at manageable levels, eliminates annoying mating behaviors, is more effective/less costly than repeated eradication attempts, is humane to the animals, and fosters compassion in the community.</p></blockquote>
<p>A bunch of nonsense.  First, it does not &#8220;stabilize&#8221; cat population levels.  If anything, it results in MORE cats.  The site of 100+ cats well-cared for and very publicly visible encourages other people to drop-off their unwanted cat at the &#8220;colony&#8221;.</p>
<p>Second, how can trap, castrate, release, and then care for that cat for its life be cheaper than trap and euthanize?  You&#8217;ve got me on that one.</p>
<p>Finally, as any TNR person will tell you, it is impossible to catch every cat in a colony, and so the colony will continue to expand, while significant efforts and cost will go towards trying to catch the few uncatchables&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>We shouldn’t be deciding who lives and who dies (the cat or the bird, etc)</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s just stupid to say, and I bet you know it.  Cats were introduced by humans.  And they are decimating local ecosystems.  We need to be responsible and clean up this mess.</p>
<blockquote><p>There’s no simply answer or solution, but there is a happy medium that we all can contribute to and that’s TNR.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, here&#8217;s a good summation of why <a href="http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/species/nuis_exo/dom_cat/cat.html" rel="nofollow">TNR doesn&#8217;t work</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
     To wildlife biologists and other critics, the trap-and-release program is impracticable if not downright fraudulent, a Trojan Horse full of cats being shunted onto public lands.</p>
<p>    First, they say, it is almost impossible to trap all feral cats within a given area at once. Indeed, a member of Happy Tails in Sacramento acknowledged to reporter Tracy Bryan of KCRA-TV that not a single cat had been captured in three colonies this cat group managed. Moreover, cats trapped once will tend to avoid a second experience, thus evading booster shots.</p>
<p>    Second, feeding does not prevent hunting; in fact, it may increase the cat’s advantage over prey and native predators, including the great horned owl, long-tailed weasel, and gray fox.</p>
<p>    Third, evidence is lacking that cats will band together to protect territory; indeed, there is much literature and observation to the contrary. “It’s common for new cats to show up at feeding stations,” said Ron Jurek of the Nongame Bird and Mammal Program, California Department of Fish and Game. The very existence of colonies attracts more cats as they become dumping grounds for unwanted pets.</p>
<p>    Fourth, sterilization-a step universally applauded-does not appreciably reduce the feral cat population. Biologists Victor Chow and Peter Connors of the Bodega Marine Laboratory argued this point to the city of Santa Rosa in attempting to dissuade it from accepting the TTVAR program. There will always be nonsterile cats around, they said; the program really only enhances the survival rate of kittens.</p>
<p>[...]</p>
<p>Ron Jurek at Fish and Game calls this bunkum. “Cats are domestic animals bred for companionship with humans. They fill no niche in the wild except that carved out for them by people. Cats have no place whatsoever in parks.” (Like most leading opponents of trap and release programs, Jurek is a cat owner, disproving a cat movement allegation that the issue pits “cat lovers against bird lovers.” Four cats live in his home, but do not roam beyond the deck.) Left to their own devices, cats must spread thinly and range widely to eke out a short and miserable existence. Far greater densities quickly become the norm wherever cats are fed in groups. “Even a small group of six cats roaming over a few dozen acres of open space exists at a population density greater than all local native mammal predators combined,” Jurek said. The result is an inexorable depletion of ground-nesting birds, small rodents, reptiles, and amphibians including salamanders and frogs.</p></blockquote>
<p>Trap-neuter-release people simply don&#8217;t care about the environment.</p>
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		<title>By: Alley Cat Rescue</title>
		<link>http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-34446</link>
		<dc:creator>Alley Cat Rescue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-34446</guid>
		<description>I will not argue with placing blame on irresponsible people who do not sterilize their pets, who dump them outside, who move and leave them behind, as the cause for stray and feral cats. However, I do not agree with trapping and euthanizing them. Eradicating cats and colonies does not the fix the problem, it makes it worse. This will allow for more cats to come in and take their place; starting the whole cycle over again.

The more effective method of controlling feral cats is through TNR (trap-neuter-return). TNR stabilizes populations at manageable levels, eliminates annoying mating behaviors, is more effective/less costly than repeated eradication attempts, is humane to the animals, and fosters compassion in the community.

Not to mention, TNR is more humane. It is not the cats' fault, so why punish them. We shouldn't be deciding who lives and who dies (the cat or the bird, etc); we should be helping cats by at least sterilizing them and having them vet checked. This way their populations are being controlled and their health ensured. 

Feral cats are animals like any other animal. They are wild and have the instincts to survive without human contact. Yes, there are hardships they face (cars, weather conditions, other animals--they do have predators) but so does every other animal. We don't round up all the squirrels and raccoons and euthanize them because we feel bad that they might have to defend themselves.

There's no simply answer or solution, but there is a happy medium that we all can contribute to and that's TNR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will not argue with placing blame on irresponsible people who do not sterilize their pets, who dump them outside, who move and leave them behind, as the cause for stray and feral cats. However, I do not agree with trapping and euthanizing them. Eradicating cats and colonies does not the fix the problem, it makes it worse. This will allow for more cats to come in and take their place; starting the whole cycle over again.</p>
<p>The more effective method of controlling feral cats is through TNR (trap-neuter-return). TNR stabilizes populations at manageable levels, eliminates annoying mating behaviors, is more effective/less costly than repeated eradication attempts, is humane to the animals, and fosters compassion in the community.</p>
<p>Not to mention, TNR is more humane. It is not the cats&#8217; fault, so why punish them. We shouldn&#8217;t be deciding who lives and who dies (the cat or the bird, etc); we should be helping cats by at least sterilizing them and having them vet checked. This way their populations are being controlled and their health ensured. </p>
<p>Feral cats are animals like any other animal. They are wild and have the instincts to survive without human contact. Yes, there are hardships they face (cars, weather conditions, other animals&#8211;they do have predators) but so does every other animal. We don&#8217;t round up all the squirrels and raccoons and euthanize them because we feel bad that they might have to defend themselves.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no simply answer or solution, but there is a happy medium that we all can contribute to and that&#8217;s TNR.</p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-34430</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 02:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/01/16/feral-cats-and-feral-horses/#comment-34430</guid>
		<description>thank you for posting such a ball-sie topic!  i know many people don't like the sound of such a thing - that feral cats are a problem, and that there may only be one way to solve the problem - but seriously!  this needs to be a part of our conversation!  every time i go for a walk, it seems like everywhere i look there are cats, cats, cats.  i'm not sure how many of them belong to people, but really, humans need to be more responsible with their animals - otherwise they're bad pet-owners!  and when we have had as many bad cat-owners as we've had, we end up with wild (feral) cats becoming a serious problem to the ecosystems surrounding our urbanized areas (and beyond, no doubt).  so that means that because of those bad cat-owners who couldn't take responsibility in the first place, new people have to take even more, difficult responsibility by dealing with all these roaming, predatory animals!

and nobody has the balls to step up and say, "either we euthanize these animals, or we lose our local bird population."

so let's choose: protect the cute, fuzzy things that have no real predator, or take responsibility for an extremely harmful invasive species that is our own fault.

(PS - instead of getting all sentimental over these fuzzy cats, why don't the cat people put their energy into saving the ACTUAL ENVIRONMENT? just a thought!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thank you for posting such a ball-sie topic!  i know many people don&#8217;t like the sound of such a thing - that feral cats are a problem, and that there may only be one way to solve the problem - but seriously!  this needs to be a part of our conversation!  every time i go for a walk, it seems like everywhere i look there are cats, cats, cats.  i&#8217;m not sure how many of them belong to people, but really, humans need to be more responsible with their animals - otherwise they&#8217;re bad pet-owners!  and when we have had as many bad cat-owners as we&#8217;ve had, we end up with wild (feral) cats becoming a serious problem to the ecosystems surrounding our urbanized areas (and beyond, no doubt).  so that means that because of those bad cat-owners who couldn&#8217;t take responsibility in the first place, new people have to take even more, difficult responsibility by dealing with all these roaming, predatory animals!</p>
<p>and nobody has the balls to step up and say, &#8220;either we euthanize these animals, or we lose our local bird population.&#8221;</p>
<p>so let&#8217;s choose: protect the cute, fuzzy things that have no real predator, or take responsibility for an extremely harmful invasive species that is our own fault.</p>
<p>(PS - instead of getting all sentimental over these fuzzy cats, why don&#8217;t the cat people put their energy into saving the ACTUAL ENVIRONMENT? just a thought!)</p>
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